You probably know what I'm talking about already I guess. If not, one (and I dare say, the most common) interpretation of the surprise rules in the DMG woud allow, in theory, a character that has the advantage of 5 segments of surprise (the maximum given a d6 roll for each party), to loose 30 arrows in 30 seconds of game time (a fire-rate of 2, times 3 for the "surprise bonus", times 5 for the five segments).
This makes zero sense to me either game-mechanically or "realistically". It wrecks a lot of things.
I have been discussing this recently and somebody else put forward a "house rule" to make this make sense ... but the more I think of it, and the more I re-read the pertinent paragraph (3rd paragraph on p62, DMG), the more I believe this, "house rule" may very possibly have actually been exactly what Gygax had intended all along, and the confusion has only arisen due to poor editing and the confusion of High Gygaxian.
The paragraph reads:
Because the party surprised is (relatively) inactive, the surprising party will be able to attempt telling blows during each segment of surprise as if the segment were an entire round! That is, a fighter able to attack twice during a normal round of combat will be able to do so twice during each surprise segment, so dice are rolled for hit determination accordingly. Even if distance prevents striking with weapons, the discharge of arrows, bolts or hand-hurled weapons is permissible at three times the normal rate providing the weapon/missiles are ready, otherwise at normal rates for rounds. Once surprise segments are over, melee proceeds normally on a round-by-round basis.
The common interpretation is of course that the discharge of arrows is permissible at three times the normal rate per segment.
Instead of that, I think it's entirely possible that what was actually intended, despite the confusing explanation is actually this:
During the surprise phase, melee combat occurs in each surprise segment just as it would during a normal round. However, if distance prevents striking with weapons, ranged weapons can be used at three times the normal fire-rate one time for the entire surprise phase, and only if they are readied.
This makes way more sense to me, both from a fun-combat-mechanics perspective and also it's much more realistic and believable than potentially loosing 30 arrows in 30 seconds.
Thoughts?
re: 1-2 rounds of surprise as "surprise" and "complete surprise", I think that's a holdover from Chainmail and/or OD&D, in addition to modules (most-likely the G-D modules in particular, since they're full of OD&D-isms).
FWIW, I agree that the range of possible segments of surprise is normally only 1 or 2 for most creatures/most situations, however, as creatures (as well as rangers and monks, and often thieves/assassins, and sometimes halflings and elves too) gain higher chances to surprise, I do allow the larger differences in surprise rolls to dictate a wider range of possible surprise segments (Leigh L. Krehmeyer's "Surprise!" article in Dragon #133 is a good example of one of the later-era articles that's worth digging up---IIRC she converts every 16% into another surprise segment [assuming a d6 base roll]).
FWIW^2, I read the most critical part of the surprise attacks for missile weapons as follows:
"are ready" I interpret to mean a prepared ambush or equivalent prep---a dungeon killzone where at-the-ready archers fire through murder holes/arrow slits or kobold javelineers from balconies down into a lower gallery; or, defenders along a castle wall with barrels of arrows right at hand, etc. The key being that the attackers have a ready and large supply of missiles immediately at hand.
FWIW^3, I only allow an extra additional attack with the off-hand weapon, not an additional full attack routine. So, a dual-wielding PC with 3/2 attacks (which I normally parse as 1 then 2 attacks) would gain 1+1 then 2+1 attacks with an offhand weapon, not a doubled attack rate of 2 then 4 (although that would be applicable under haste with 4 then 6 attacks if dual-wielding [I think]). In this I am probably as informed by Roger Moore's Dragon #68 article "Be a Two-Fisted Fighter" as I am by the DMG's rules.
Allan.
Complete vs normal surprise was an OD&D mechanic was it not? I don't know, I haven't read those books. Anyway, your way makes perfect sense. I don't disagree or think it's a flawed method at all. In fact, I think it's very good. However, I will just say I don't really have a problem with a 7th level fighter turning into a wheeling whirlwind of death among a bunch of extremely surprised (I imagine the lot of them being caught with their pants down, more-or-less literally) opponents, even if it meant they were all cut down before combat even begun.
That to me is just nowhere near as problematic nor as large a stretch of believably as a non-proficient, 1st-level character firing off arrows at a rate of one-per-second, not to mention 30 of them in a row! FWIW, it does actually specify the word, "blows" (which in my mind, do not include arrow shots) when describing the entire-round-in-one-segment mechanic on p62. That also hinted to me that maybe the interpretation that I gave above actually was what Gygax intended as opposed to me just desperately wanting the btb rules to make sense. "Melee" is also generally used to describe hand-to-hand combat, not ranged weapon fire.
... then of course we have the further confusing of the PHB stating fairly specifically that you get only 1 attack per segment of surprise. So I dunno. It's a pity those books weren't edited a bit more carefully. lol.
I think the real problem with surprise is running it as outlined on DMGp62!
You have probably already read my opinions: https://www.thebluebard.com/post/combat-part-ii-surprise-you-re-dead
My opinions are founded on speculation derived from various modules (written by Gygax) that refer to the terms "surprise" and "complete surprise" and imply that any surprise roll results in one or the other of these two categories.
I bet @grodog remembers the actual text from those modules I'm referring to better than me...
Suffice to say, your interpretation is, I think quite SANE...until you remember that melee is explicitly called out in paragraph 2 of the example text on p62. Let's assume you allow a 7th level fighter to swing twice on round one and once an round two. If he's dual wielding that means a rhythm of 4 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 4 which means that a dual wielding fighter of even 7th level would attack a whopping 16 times during 5 segments of surprise. Now you might say that's better than 30 by a looooong shot. But is it?
Consider that the melee attack of the fighter will have the weapon's plus and STR adjustment and will likely have a base chance of more dmg output. Something like 2d4 (broadsword) + 1d6 (hand ax) +2 dmg on each for STR and a further +1 because the broadsword is magical.
This is why I actually ALLOW the x3 multiplier on missiles during surprise (bear with me) which means 6 bowshots on surprise (1 seg) and 12 bow shots on COMPLETE surprise (2 seg).
If you assume there are only ever two potential surprise segments then missile fire gets a clear advantage over melee, but doesn't go cray.
As a final data point to take into account when boggled by even the prospects of 12 arrows from a long bow, recall the to-hit-AC adjustments for missile weapons must also be considered. You will notice that missile weapons are terrible at actually hitting anything of even moderate AC. The stand out exceptions are the longbow and heavy crossbow, with the light crossbow as runner up.
The heavy crossbow is the missile version of the two-handed sword when it comes to to-hit-AC adjustments. Therefore, longbows and heavy crossbows are suddenly a lot more epic during surprise, while all other missile weapons (though getting more chances to roll) are still very likely to miss their mark.
Anyway, as you can see from my combat round tracker, I only provide for a maximum of 2 surprise segments which stems from the notions mentioned above about normal vs complete surprise. Under extraordinary circumstances I have allowed MONSTERS to have more than 2 segments, similar to those Gygaxian Gotcha's I mention in the blog post, but those are one-offs and I make sure not to let it get out of hand (e.g. the 30 arrows in 30 seconds example)
Hope this helps, but also realize it is gray-space as only a % of other refs will agree with me.
Maybe Allan will chime in on the complete vs normal surprise refs as I have to get my day started and don't have time to look right now.
peace!