Zjelwyin Fall on-deck in grodog's Greyhawk

That's a great question. I feel like multi class characters have a suite of limitations and handicaps that might make a level for each class just fine. Multi class characters are after all made of glass. 😆 Otherwise, I might provide enough xp to elevate all classes by half.

But then they might be lower than 4th level still, and able to return to the Fall to loot it again (not that there aren't other ways around that stricture too...).

Allan.

It's so nice to see the adventure used by others. As luck would have it, I too ran ZF yesterday during my Saturday group's session! They experienced VC 1,2 and three. The party got separated at the Sapphire door. Two of them then died to monodrones. The remaining ranger ended up summoning the shuctulb, which tore him to pieces. But everyone made their system shock check and woke up a few days later under the care of the celestial knights... Who then begged them to make another attempt.

I an curious about a few things, Anthony:

- Did you change-up ZF at all for the players who had previously visited the site?*

- How did the two groups do (if both went??), in comparison to your original crew?

* I positioned ZF as a place that is different every time it’s visited, so past histories of visits would not be useful guides to exploring it in the future, save as examples of the kinds of things that could be encountered, rather than the specific encounters’ contents themselves.

Allan.

Good to know, thanks. I'm trying to gauge his personality in part based on his power level relative to the other, better-defined NPCs from City of Brass. The fact that he preferred his harem as undead is interesting, and aligns with my perception of him as vain (and that is why, in part, that he resides in the astral plane to prevent the physical decay of his body into traditional skeletal lichdom). The fact that he is so powerful, but still could not compete with Iblis is telling! :D "Many self-styled lich kings"!! :D Allan.

Vanity is on the nose. The proxy body in his hoard is for his use! But Dachod is also an unwilling nihilist who sees the bitter end of everything as inevitable. This is both why his sigil is the broken hourglass and his lair preference is Astral. He's denying time----recall the Gringlings were the Writers and Eaters of Time, but Dachod has chosen neither. A true outcast.

Were Dachod to face Iblis now, outside the City, I think Iblis would have little chance against the ascended demigod. But back in the day, Iblis' many support systems would have won the day, not least of which was the City itself and its many defense mechanisms at Iblis' disposal.

I admit it is fun to talk some of the back story because my Players rarely scratch the surface of this lore. They are just trying to stay alive and every session unearths more lore that is impossible for them to keep in RAM. The handouts sit in an REAL inbox in a messy pile. Oh that you lived in Austin!

Thanks again, I appreciate the insights into your design thinking and intentions! :D

I'm thinking that Drachod (I added the extra 'r' in my version of his name) may offer help to the PCs out of desire for self-preservation (aka, the goodness of his heart ;) )---if their reaction rolls are good. He acts as a custodian for prophetic lore from the clergy of Celestian, and in return Celestian helped to build ZF and still maintains it on Drachod's behalf. So he has a vested self-interest to ensure that Celestian continues to invest that daily Primal flux into ZF.

So the PCs will retrieve the prophecy previously-deposited* in ages past. That they're pulling this particular prophecy (the sestina I emailed you) will pique his concern and curiosity, in particular if he notices one of the PCs carrying the lesser tentacle rod. (In fact, he'll be far-more concerned about evidence that the drow attempted to infiltrate ZF and will immediately connect them to the prophecy, although he won't share that detail with the PCs, or Celestian). Hence the help. If he notices that, he may also geas the PCs to deliver a message to the Master at the NWI (which would be a handy way to introduce that into the game), or perhaps to Tenser, Iggwilv, or someone comparable (I haven't decided yet---he may just keep the info to himself, for the moment, too).

* The PCs don't know this yet, but they're not just bringing back a scroll with the prophecy on it. To retrieve the prophecy requires a virgin twin acolyte, and Drachod will kiss her to transfer it (sort of a cross between the Quickening from Highlander and the kiss of the angel Simon from The Prophecy). Drachod himself is the storage device. To deposit the prophecy into him (which the PCs are not doing) is a bit more intimate.... The twins are critical to the process: the prophecy, while it is deposited into one of them, infects both: so the twin who remains on the Prime also acts as a receiver for the prophecy, and gains access to it at the same time that the other twin in the Astral receives it from Drachod. This ensures data availability for the priesthood in case the first twin doesn't successfully return home. (The NPC twins naturally know nothing of this either).

I do think it's unlikely that we would move to Austin, but I will still keep you posted on any possible conferences or work trips in your vicinity! NTX is still in my plans for June 2023.

Allan.

Potion and magical ink recipes are another too under-used aspect of the rules!

Allan.

@grodog So true! However, the herbs only reduce the cost of brewing to zero. They don't provide any boost to chances of successfully brewing. Since World Without End has an XP value of 8,000, this makes its chances of brewing (sans recipe) beyond even a 40th level M-U:

My formula is designed such that the most powerful version of Dragon Control (XP 1,000) allows a 21st level M-U a 1% chance of success per brewing attempt. The same M-U crafting a potion of Invisibility has a 76% chance of success. By utilizing time to brew, cost to brew, and chance of success, I give PCs a great way to burn that extra money without flooding their vaults with the most powerful potions imaginable. Players will often opt to make Potions of Healing instead of Extra-Healing when time is an issue because of the higher success rate.

This is my answer to keeping World Without End as difficult to obtain as possible.

@Anthony: Interesting. A 21st level archmage having only a 1% chance to brew any potion (even the mightiest of dragon control potions) seems a bit low to me ;) Are your potion brewing rules based on starting to brew at level 7 (based on PHB errata) or level 11 (based on PHB text)? Not that I think 4 levels would make much difference, but it's worth asking :D I do love the concept of potions not just being low-level magic items, so lichdom potions, elixirs of life, and similar "powerful" potions being hard to craft makes sense.

Time to brew seems like a more useful balancing factor here vs. chance of success/cost to me: at some tipping point, having your MU offline for XX months brewing potions gets to be non-optimal ;)

Allan.

@grodog Yes. They can start brewing at lvl 7. To me, the 1% for top shelf dragon control is spot on at 21st level because if they manage that, absolutely fine. They are going to walk in there and walk out with the hoard. I'm sure each campaign is unique for balancing, but the potion brewing calculator has served our game well for many years as both a treasure sink and a source of shrewdly gambled-for supplies the PCs can usually only find in dungeons.

We actually have run several side quests in the past, using other characters in the stable, while the M-U is brewing and it has seemed to work out well. In some cases the rest of the party waited so we fast forwarded time and the only consequence they faced collectively was that the world didn't stop turning. So there were world changes. Nevertheless, I agree that these systems I've installed were created after reading canon, but are only INSPIRED by the canon using my best intentions and design sensibilities. They are suited to my setting and balanced accordingly. You could certainly tweak the spreadsheet formulas so they generate more in accordance with your own checks and balances.

Economy of the setting is like an invisible weight each participant slips into the pans of balance at the onset of exactly this kind of discussion. We do it subconsciously. We can't see each other's weights and don't know how big or small they are. But we often discuss as if the economies supporting the decisions are interchangeable.

I tend to be more generous with treasure and magic devices because in my games there are so many characters that need to be equipped (the stable is massive) while still replacing gear that's continually being destroyed. Creating items is something I want to control in a VERY heavy handed way. I prefer the PCs to find gear. If they want to make it, that's fine, but I'm going exact a high toll. The Players have historically had good luck in both fabrication and recharging of items, but they don't do it often----you might say because my systems discourage it. I would flip it as an incentive. To keep your M-U out of the lab and adventuring. Often, what they create are the staples, the basics, the stuff like Potions of Healing, Flying, etc. that are universally handy, that they have a reasonable chance of success crafting, and that they are willing to wait for.

Monte, the Magic-User, at 12th level had a 52% chance of crafting each Potion of Extra Healing. So he'd spend 4 days brewing and basically flip a coin. It was its own mini-game with attending drama. Rolling those dice with 50% odds or less is actually fun gambling and brought some laughter to games where the players are getting ready to adventure instead of actually adventuring.

You can also think of it this way:

• Creation = High Cost in Time/Money. You get exactly what you want but not on the first try and only if you are committed. Crafting things that are Over Powered is unlikely at best.

• Adventuring = High Cost in Risk to the character sheet. You don't get to choose what you get, but it probably fills your coffers instead of draining them. Your guy isn't stuck in the lab.